Game Over

[Neo]

I'm posting this to let everyone -- all like 8 of you -- who posts or reads Serious Discussion that I will no longer be moderating this section of the forum at all. Some of you may be thrilled at that prospect, others indifferent. However I thought it only fair to warn you guys as to what might be happening here in a little bit. I'm pushing to have Serious Discussion closed. The truth is that General Discussion has basically replaced S.D. for all intents and purposes. On top of that people seem less interested in stroking their egos in G.D. then they do in S.D. so there's that. On top of that, G.D. has more coverage moderation wise and I'm, quite frankly, tired of splitting my focus.

Let's be honest here folks, S.D. is dead. It's been dying for awhile now and it's only a husk of it's former self. Really there's not much more to say is there?

I'm not sure what will happen -- if anything? -- to Serious Discussion but you all may consider it a free-for-all section for the time being. Call your opponent names, launch personal attacks on one another, troll to your heart's content because it's over! Any decent thread posted after this one will be moved to General Discussion if the discussion is worth saving -- which after all is the main reason for this change, General Discussion serves the same purpose as S.D. does so it seems redundant to have both.

In closing I want to make it clear that this will not be a permanent closure, indeed I hope to revisit the possibility of reopening Serious Discussion in the future, but it's quite clear that as this section exists now it has fallen. I was the last staff member even at all interested in this place, and when I step back, no one will be left to pick up the reigns.

If you'd like to bitch me out, comment, or otherwise offer your thoughts feel free to reply here. I've asked other staff members to offer their thoughts as well.

And before anyone asks I don't want to see S.D. closed and merged with General Discussion, indeed I think a better alternative would be to close this forum, rename it "Serious Discussion Archives" and tack it underneath G.D. as a sub-forum, since I would hate to see all the past discussions get lost.

[Beer Nuts]

It is wrong to blame an inanimate collection of bits and bytes for what is most assuredly a problem that can be attributed to human beings. Regardless of who is to blame, it seems shortsighted to close a forum because "people" are misbehaving.

[WindowlessHouse]

I think banning DE would solve the problem. This place was fine while he was banned and I think if it is tried again the correlation could be improved from 100% to 101%.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Lackey

It is wrong to blame an inanimate collection of bits and bytes for what is most assuredly a problem that can be attributed to human beings. Regardless of who is to blame, it seems shortsighted to close a forum because "people" are misbehaving.

Oh come on. Surely you know there comes a time when one needs to cut their losses? Hanging on to Serious Discussion as it is isn't going to happen. More new people join General Discussion threads then they do SD threads even though there generally the same. The past two weeks of threads posted in Serious Discussion could not only have been posted in General Discussion, but might have done better were they posted there.

S.D. is a loss. I would rather see us spend more time focused on other parts of the forum then try to prop up a section that's been dead for awhile. Hell, even you don't post down here anymore Lackey, and you're not the only one! And you're claiming it's shortsighted of me to suggest we close Serious Discussion? The only reason it didn't happen sooner was specifically because of me. And now it's going to close because of me anyway. Fighting a losing battle isn't really my idea of a good time.

Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse

I think banning DE would solve the problem. This place was fine while he was banned and I think if it is tried again the correlation could be improved from 100% to 101%.

I will not ban someone because you disagree with them. Besides you act as if he is the only one guilty of trolling and acting like a juvenile.

[JT]

Originally Posted by Neo

I will not ban someone because you disagree with them. Besides you act as if he is the only one guilty of trolling and acting like a juvenile.

I disagree with WindowlessHouse on much except for this. Deagle is a huge troll. Banning him from SD would significantly improve it.

I want reasonable people to honestly engage in discussion on BF, especially SD. Deagle doesn't. He just tosses out accusations of logical fallacy or nitpicks grammar to death, and engages in his own fallacies of logic along the way.

[Beer Nuts]

Banning D.E. would solve "a" problem. It would also make the forum 90% less active as he is the new Raptor. After the Siegetank/Cronoss days, there was the Chaos/Raptor and sometimes Nuts days when we would get into some extremely long winded and vitriolic debates. Chaos and Raptor carried on much longer and far more venomous than I recall doing myself. But today it's D.E. -vs- W.H./HotelViolet (where did he go?) and Chaos?

Why don't I post? Because I haven't the time to invest in long discussions really. I can't double check my facts or verify dates, nothing. I have time to post from memory, that's it.

My failure to visit S.D. has little to do with the quality or the posts of the posters.

Bottom line, closing S.D. without banning people for their indiscretions is like closing a bank instead of arresting bank robbers. It makes no sense.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Lackey

Banning D.E. would solve "a" problem. It would also make the forum 90% less active as he is the new Raptor. After the Siegetank/Cronoss days, there was the Chaos/Raptor and sometimes Nuts days when we would get into some extremely long winded and vitriolic debates. Chaos and Raptor carried on muhc longer and far more venomous than I recall doing myself. But today it's D.E. -vs- W.H./HotelViolet (where did he go?) and Chaos?

Why don't I post? Because I haven't the time to invest in long discussions really. I can't double check my facts or verify dates, nothing. I have time to post from memory, that's it.

My failure to visit S.D. has little to do with the quality of the posts of the posters.

HV was banned for being a hateful bastard. Chaos won't post in S.D. because of me or DE, I forget which at this point. DE considers WH to be unintelligent, as such basically ignores him, so there's really no discussions happening there. My point in mentioning you're inactivity in S.D. wasn't meant as a slight against you, only to point out that even you are more active in General Discussion. Every thread posted in the last couple of weeks -- even the last month I would imagine -- would have been equally as fine had I moved them to General Discussion. Truthfully S.D. is suffering because of G.D. so there seems little reason to continue a battle that we can't win.

Let it go Lackey. G.D. has already, for all intents and purposes, replaced S.D. This decision is only admitting that. Even the last 'hope' we had -- organized official debates failed miserably because no one was willing to actually put up. Which indicates to me even more of a problem -- people are willing to argue normally, but don't have the, I don't know, gumption to argue in a true debate.

De's been banned about 4 times since I took over S.D. I think (including restrictions I placed on him earlier). The problem is that people skirt the line too often, and if I ban them it looks like I'm just being a prick. And frankly I'm tired of being bitched at. DE bitches at me for infracting him, people bitch at me for not banning DE, others bitch at me for infracting them, even arguing with me that their asshole behavior was justified... Honestly I've got other things I'd rather do around BF then moderate this forum, that's slowly becoming inactive anyway!

It's time to cut it loose.

[Khushrenada]

Tbh I agree - I think if anything was going to have an effect it would have happened a long time ago.

[JT]

Originally Posted by Lackey

Banning D.E. would solve "a" problem. It would also make the forum 90% less active as he is the new Raptor. After the Siegetank/Cronoss days, there was the Chaos/Raptor and sometimes Nuts days when we would get into some extremely long winded and vitriolic debates. Chaos and Raptor carried on muhc longer and far more venomous than I recall doing myself. But today it's D.E. -vs- W.H./HotelViolet (where did he go?) and Chaos?

Why don't I post? Because I haven't the time to invest in long discussions really. I can't double check my facts or verify dates, nothing. I have time to post from memory, that's it.

My failure to visit S.D. has little to do with the quality of the posts of the posters.

Well, Hotel Violet was banned for being a racist troll and for multiple accounts.

Internet debate is inherently flawed from the start because it doesn't promote honest debate. Sure, in theory you could talk to some guy from New Zealand about theology, but mostly you're going to find bored white kids with too much time on their hands posting deliberately inflammatory shit just to piss people off. Or actual crazy people who believe the government is tracking them with implants in their ass.

Fark is a great example of this. Discussion there is, by and large, driven by moderators greenlighting inflammatory headlines that often are the exact reverse of what the article says, all to piss off people and make them post comments, ergo, driving up ad revenue (though this could be a flaw in Fark's thread-making system).

If boosting post count is your only priority, having a few inflammatory people on a board (Raptor, Deagle, Chaos, etc.) works wonders in agitating the masses. However, what I have found is that, over time, the majority of posts become troll posts and replies to trolling. Remove the troll, and post count goes way, way, down.

Of course, increased moderatorship results in cries of fascism, real or imagined, and sometimes you can get a real asshole in power over a board and kills it that way. Karma systems like Digg usually devolve into tyranny of the masses, where unpopular opinions (even those that are valid) are shut out of debate. Total freedom systems like 4chan, well, I don't even need to tell you why that's bad.

The biggest irony about trolling is that, even though everyone hates trolls, they're the ones that actually promote posting. Not healthy posting, but posting nonetheless. It requires a lot less brain power to shout OBAMA SUX or BUSH SUX or GOD SUX or ATHEISTS SUX than it does to actually come up with anything of substance, so trolls are always going to outnumber the actually smart people (like Cronoss, SiegeTank, WinAce, etc.).

Ideally, the best system would be one that attracts smart/valuable posters while deterring trolls. Since trolls are obnoxious sons of bitches that are nearly impossible to deter, a strong (but not fascist) mod would be needed.

/sorry for the overly long post
//I could probably write a book about this shit

[Beer Nuts]

Bitching comes with the job. Your problem is that you try to explain yourself. I learned quickly that banning people in S.D. required no comments. Just ban/infract, cite the thread and move on. Hell, half the time nobody even complained because they knew what they did.

No offense Neo, but perhaps you've just become a bit of a pariah in S.D.? Sometimes when you try too hard to make things work, they fall apart.

Regardless, shut down SD, shut down SC, shut it all down. I'm growing weary of the attempts to micromanage this place via proxy. Someone needs to step up and be the boss. Enforcerman used to do that, but he hasn't been active since forever, and now LoA doesn't seem to have the time nor the desire to step into those shoes either. So we're left something of a disarray.

This place has problems, but let's not pretend for a moment that the members are the sole cause of these problems. This site is a mess because nobody wants to clean it up. They just want to shut everything down.

I think SD is great, and I like the Wild West debating that occurs in GD these days.

Why is everyone so mad at DE? Why do you keep calling him a "troll"? Wtf is a troll? He makes very good points in very strange ways, like for instance sticking it to GA about his marijuana law nonsense by creating a perfectly reasonable thread using similar logic on healthcare. I thought that was a fantastic point, personally.

Why I think you all call him a troll is because you fancy yourselves old and intelligent (like me) and don't really want to think about your views anymore. We're all old vets here and we think we're smarter than everyone. There's no true debating God anymore who just trounces all and forces everyone into "put up or shut up" mode.

In my mind, when you get down to it, the problem is not DE, it is the rest of you. It's all you old vets who think you are owed some sort of respect. You are just set in your ways and wanna just posture about your arrogant views and then whine whenever someone comes along and breaks you in half.

Waaah troll waaaaaah. I recently disagreed heavily with DE and it was a perfectly fine debate. You don't see me whining about DE because he made a point I just didn't particular feel good about because I'm on my high horse and I am an old vet and I don't want to learn anything else and I think I'm an internet hero and I like to post gay ass JPEGs instead of debating and I just want to be taken seriously but can't because I'm lazy and dumb.

That about covers it.

[JT]

Originally Posted by Kaizen

Why is everyone so mad at DE? Why do you keep calling him a "troll"?

Because his posts are deliberately inflammatory for the purpose of pissing people off.

Wtf is a troll?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Why I think you all call him a troll is because you fancy yourselves old and intelligent (like me) and don't really want to think about your views anymore.

That's not even the case. I don't mind people with opposing or different views than me, but to go about it in the most asinine and juvenile way possible doesn't sway anyone to your cause or reconsider their opinions. No, it does the exact opposite: it just causes people to batten down the hatches and go on the defensive. Nothing ever progresses or changes. Everyone remains static.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Lackey

Bitching comes with the job. Your problem is that you try to explain yourself. I learned quickly that banning people in S.D. required no comments. Just ban/infract, cite the thread and move on. Hell, half the time nobody even complained because they knew what they did.

You miss the point dammit. There's not enough people in Serious Discussion where that sort of moderation would be valid. If I ban DE for two weeks, S.D.'s activity plummets. By the same token if I ban someone else -- say GA -- activity plummets. There's no one left. They've all moved on.

Originally Posted by Lackey

Regardless, shut down SD, shut down SC, shut it all down. I'm growing weary of the attempts to micromanage this place via proxy. Someone needs to step up and be the boss. Enforcerman used to do that, but he hasn't been active since forever, and now LoA doesn't seem to have the time nor the desire to step into those shoes either. So we're left something of a disarray.

We're not shutting down SC, regardless that's a topic for another thread and you know it. I fail to see how admitting the truth is "wrong".

Originally Posted by Lackey

This place has problems, but let's not pretend for a moment that the members are the sole cause of these problems. This site is a mess because nobody wants to clean it up. They just want to shut everything down.

Broken record much?

Problem in no specific order:

Low Activity
Trolling
Low Activity
General Discussion
Low Activity
God Topics that devolve into the same argument time and again
Low Activity
Political topics that devolve into name-calling and personal attacks
Moderation

I don't know, does that about cover it?

Let's look at G.D. - Good moderation, very good activity, a collection of serious and non-serious attitudes, topics don't get recycled (unless they're anti-obama ones ), need I go on?

Kaizen also brings up a good point about "old vets" and such. I said this earlier over a different group, but I'll say it here - Folks, you need to get over yourselves. In SD there's history attached to each and every one of you. New people rarely seem interested in posting, and when they do are usually shut down pretty quickly. Let me make it clear that the idea of "veterans" who deserve "special treatment" on a forum is something that annoys me a great deal. S.D. is dead -- or would've been dead shortly. This is only admitting what is obvious to most people.

It's time to move on. I'm hoping that, as time does go on, people miss Serious Discussion and eventually when we do re-open it there'll be as much excitement about it as there was when we re-opened General Discussion. To be perfectly honest I'm not really interested in being told I'm wrong for supporting this position, because I won't be changing my position anytime soon. I just wanted to warn people about it instead of springing them on it.

[Beer Nuts]

Than close the thread if you don't desire discussion.

Duh

[JT]

Originally Posted by Neo

It's time to move on. I'm hoping that, as time does go on, people miss Serious Discussion and eventually when we do re-open it there'll be as much excitement about it as there was when we re-opened General Discussion. To be perfectly honest I'm not really interested in being told I'm wrong for supporting this position, because I won't be changing my position anytime soon. I just wanted to warn people about it instead of springing them on it.

Perhaps this is the best case. We don't have a critical mass of people that go beyond name-calling and other bullshit tactics (which, admitted, I engage in from time to time, mostly for lulz) to really justify having a seriousdiscussion board. Whatever day to day shit can be posted on GD until critical mass is achieved and we have a golden rensaissance of thought and reason the likes the internet has never witnessed. Until then I'll ride my T-rex to the sherbet kingdom and play chess with the undead hordes until time ends.