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Old 12-30-2008
 
#1
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Default New tax system proposal

Here is an idea I think would be superior to the current one.

Any time the government wants to pay for something it should raise a tax for it. The tax should be clearly defined and only go towards the specific government program it's meant for -- no broad general categories.

For example if we want to go to war there is an Iraq war tax, Afghanistan war tax, national defense tax, communications/intelligence tax. etc. If we want to build the interstates there should be an interstate tax, bridge tax, etc. If a local government wishes to build a new courthouse it should make a courthouse tax. Same thing with a school, don't just increase the property tax, make it very specific (new school tax).

The federal government has completely circumvented this system with their broad general categories and refusal to label their taxes. This system is what caused the American Revolution, as the number of different taxes became very annoying to the colonists.

Also, nothing can be payed for without a tax for it (this will prevent the scam artists in the Fed from printing fake money, or the scumbags in congress from "buying" it with debt).

What do you think?
 
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Old 12-30-2008
 
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Well, at first glance the biggest error I see is that while current debt is unacceptable, taking on debt can be advisable under extreme conditions. While obviously we are in no such situation, if a foreign nation were to invade and posed serious threat of, say sacking DC, it would be appropriate in my mind for the government to take debt. And your proposal doesn't seem to have a mechanism to allow for such debt.

I do like the principles behind it though. Without too much serious thought, I'd say it seems like a good idea.
 
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Old 12-30-2008
 
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Why not go into full time war economy in that case? Why would we continue on a business as usual setting in that scenario?
 
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Old 12-30-2008
 
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Living in a country that supposedly employs this system already ('road user charges' are taxes specific to vehicles which 'should' go to maintaining and expanding the road network, unfortunately they don't), I'd have to say that it is quite flawed, in that it relies on the goodwill of the government (see the big problem?) to work.
 
 

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Old 01-02-2009
 
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Without a very supporting infrastructure you would loose fluidity of assets. It would be imposable to send FEMA out after enough missions, police might just stop doing their jobs if they're not getting paid because they went over-budget, lots of things could really go wrong here. Any supporting infrastructure would require that all decision makers (all 300+million Americans, or whatever the population of voters are) not only want to participate, not only understand what they're vote actually means, but they actually do vote. Of course we could just say "oh well we can have one person represent a group of people and they can vote on their behalf, but then you have exactly what we already have :P.

A better answer to this would be forcing each department to be 100% accountable and justifiable for every dollar spent. As it stands, a vast majority of organizations run their spending regulations like this:

-> What did you spend last year?
-> Did you spend more than that much this year?
YES> Then you get more money
NO > Then you get less money

What's the flaw with that? =/
These groups just run out and blow money on pork, bork, bork.
 
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Old 01-02-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Drakain Zeil View Post
Without a very supporting infrastructure you would loose fluidity of assets. It would be imposable to send FEMA out after enough missions, police might just stop doing their jobs if they're not getting paid because they went over-budget, lots of things could really go wrong here. Any supporting infrastructure would require that all decision makers (all 300+million Americans, or whatever the population of voters are) not only want to participate, not only understand what they're vote actually means, but they actually do vote. Of course we could just say "oh well we can have one person represent a group of people and they can vote on their behalf, but then you have exactly what we already have :P.
Thats a great idea, holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario. Police shouldn't go over budget because they would not have either the authority or the capacity to do so. All government agencies should plan for problems and keep money on reserve. No going over budget, period. If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom
A better answer to this would be forcing each department to be 100% accountable and justifiable for every dollar spent. As it stands, a vast majority of organizations run their spending regulations like this:

-> What did you spend last year?
-> Did you spend more than that much this year?
YES> Then you get more money
NO > Then you get less money

What's the flaw with that? =/
These groups just run out and blow money on pork, bork, bork.
Yeah, and make them criminally liable for such actions.
 
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Old 01-03-2009
 
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Thats a great idea, holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario. Police shouldn't go over budget because they would not have either the authority or the capacity to do so. All government agencies should plan for problems and keep money on reserve. No going over budget, period. If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."
Any system in a perfect world would work. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. Some groups would come in under budget, while other groups would come in over budget.

This is not including the fact that if the government needed to start a new fund for something that is needed quickly, they would have to implement the tax first and hope that the funds accrue fast enough. This wouldn't always be the case. In your original proposal, there is a waiting period, and some things can not have a waiting period.

For example, under your proposal, say many major banks created virtual loans and ended up losing all of their money. The government agencies may not have enough money in reserve due to having most of their money already allocated to other things. The banks collapse, the dollar follows, and the American Economy as we know it evaporates.

Quote:
There should be no income tax. All tax should come from buying goods and services.
The need for an income tax comes from the desire to have a lower goods/services tax. Also, only having goods/services tax helps out those who cannot afford said goods and services more than it helps out the rich, and that goes against the precedent set in American History.
 

Last edited by izzy; 01-03-2009 at 03:47 AM. Reason: more stuffs...
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Old 01-03-2009
 
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Originally Posted by izzy View Post
Any system in a perfect world would work. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. Some groups would come in under budget, while other groups would come in over budget.
It would be impossible to go over budget because you aren't allowed to spend money you don't have. Managers would be held criminally liable for going over budget, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
This is not including the fact that if the government needed to start a new fund for something that is needed quickly, they would have to implement the tax first and hope that the funds accrue fast enough. This wouldn't always be the case. In your original proposal, there is a waiting period, and some things can not have a waiting period.
Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
For example, under your proposal, say many major banks created virtual loans and ended up losing all of their money. The government agencies may not have enough money in reserve due to having most of their money already allocated to other things. The banks collapse, the dollar follows, and the American Economy as we know it evaporates.
The economy would recover. It's ok to let the banks collapse, they will be replaced by more efficient banks with more sound lending practices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
The need for an income tax comes from the desire to have a lower goods/services tax. Also, only having goods/services tax helps out those who cannot afford said goods and services more than it helps out the rich, and that goes against the precedent set in American History.
The precedent in American history is to have the federal governments budget increase to thousands of times it's original size. We should be actively working to prevent this precedent and change it. Reduce government down to the size that would make this system feasible -- don't bend the system to accomodate massive government spending.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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It would be impossible to go over budget because you aren't allowed to spend money you don't have. Managers would be held criminally liable for going over budget, period.
So now you have people terrified of going over budget. So much so that they aren't getting necessities for their various projects. Greeeeat.

And before you say that they'll be held criminally liable for not getting necessities, you need to remember that your entire project would require alot of oversight. Whos overseeing all this to make sure that it doesn't all explode?


Quote:
Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.

The economy would recover. It's ok to let the banks collapse, they will be replaced by more efficient banks with more sound lending practices.
All the people with money in said banks would lose everything. And people will start seeing banks as a risky venture. Your plan would not have lasted through this past economic crisis. It would have destroyed banks, not made room for efficient banks.

It takes time for these things to happen. Your formula includes very little, and one of the major important factors it excludes is time.

Quote:
The precedent in American history is to have the federal governments budget increase to thousands of times it's original size. We should be actively working to prevent this precedent and change it. Reduce government down to the size that would make this system feasible -- don't bend the system to accomodate massive government spending.
It would be even more expensive to rebuild the government then you are possibly thinking.

Time is money. Time doesn't stand still. These cliches exist for a reason.
 
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Old 01-08-2009
 
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Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.
People complain about the efficiency of the government every day all the time. Your solution? More red tape, more waiting periods, more processes--this time with criminal penalties! Solution to inefficiency and beauracracy: Waiting periods. Next up: fucking for virginity.
Quote:
The economy would recover. It's ok to let the banks collapse, they will be replaced by more efficient banks with more sound lending practices.
Unsupported assertion is unsupported. What do you propose the 330M frozen Americans do with themselves while they're waiting for the economy to magically recover? The economy isn't a mythical bird from yore, it isn't going to magically ressurect itself on the burning ashes of the old.

Someone might listen to your ideas when they aren't rife with such assertions as "a complete freeze on lending is OK for 5 years, because newer better banks will magically appear".
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Golgo 13 View Post
They even do this same shit in Japan. The city will dig up and replace pipes that were installed the year earlier and are perfectly fine just to increase spending so their funds don't get reduced.
They do this where you live. They do this where I live. They do this in Washington, they do this in Ottawa, it's the western way to budget. It's insane!

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Thats a great idea, holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario. Police shouldn't go over budget because they would not have either the authority or the capacity to do so. All government agencies should plan for problems and keep money on reserve. No going over budget, period. If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."
I actually had a good laugh there because I was serious in that the effects of such would be bad, but it was irony that they are somewhat bulked down and mismanaged in public opinion. But really, you have this crazy idea presented to us that everything should just be cut out, tied off, or cauterized if they aren't 100%. Really, removal of FEMA is a stupid idea, they need to be improved, not removed. I only hope you get hit by a F5 so you can have your cake and tell FEMA you don't want their help. It's insane to think that they can imagine every passable mishap that will happen to the country. I want you to sit down a realistically budget this before you start throwing more outlandish criticisms like this. Many organizations already have disaster recovery plans. Back when I worked at the bank they had ones for things such as "terrorists explode the CN tower, the data center gets obliterated, and this is what we do..." or, biological attacks, or a million other things, but they cannot cover everything, they can however do their due diligence.
Quote:
Yeah, and make them criminally liable for such actions.
There's a fine line between standards and bureaucracy. And this? Bureaucracy. Again, this idea that "we should hang anyone who doesn't fill the bill at gallows poll" these organizations do not have unlimited resources, perfect foresight, or the best decision makers, but somehow they manage to make billions of dollars anyway, because that's their goal. Not to ensure prefect budgeting that will slow down all processes and lead them to bankruptcy because everything you do has a dollar value assigned to it, listed or not. But I'll keep away from extrema situations and try to stick to realistic ones, if you do too. So, re-evaluate your idea, and consider the FULL PERSPECTIVE impact that this madness would actually have.
 
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Old 01-02-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Drakain Zeil View Post
As it stands, a vast majority of organizations run their spending regulations like this:

-> What did you spend last year?
-> Did you spend more than that much this year?
YES> Then you get more money
NO > Then you get less money
They even do this same shit in Japan. The city will dig up and replace pipes that were installed the year earlier and are perfectly fine just to increase spending so their funds don't get reduced.
 

Last edited by Golgo 13; 01-03-2009 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 01-02-2009
 
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There should be no income tax. All tax should come from buying goods and services.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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It's a very good idea. There could conceivably be some instances where the government needs to go into debt, but this could be addressed by free banking. Without a monopoly on the money supply, the government would need to go into debt to actual outside organizations, who would have an incentive to get their money back. And the government would have an incentive to pay them back, since it would need to maintain a reputation with them in order to borrow again in the future.

Overall it's a very solid plan. The challenge would be getting it implemented in the current political culture.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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I believe this is a good idea. I mean, are taxes are used to buy the President his golf carts. I fully support this plan.

But, what would happen to the other taxes? Social Security (we never needed it but still), income and others like that.
 
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