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Old 09-15-2008
 
#16
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Originally Posted by Gorbet View Post
In your case you have said that your neighbour was 'almost' assaulted and then followed home by a group of youths. What crime has been committed here? If a crime was committed where there any witnesses to verify it? Do you know exactly what the police did to investigate and how they came to take the actions that they did? If not it's rather pointless to speculate.
'Almost' refers to the fact that she managed to get into the car and lock the doors just a few moments before they reached her. She phoned the police while they were still following her around the car park. There had been other such incidents witnessed leading up to the event which included the same vehicle, and similar figures. They didn't even come that day, and when they did come, they didn't do anything, which, this being an attempted assault/robbery you would have thought they would have done, wouldn't you?

In the end they had to sell the car because she simply refused to use it for fear it would happen again.
 
 

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Old 09-15-2008
 
#17
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Originally Posted by Nuts View Post
Well, it really depends on whether or not the failure was intentional. There are times where police are simply overwhelmed with calls and these types of things happen. And you're exactly right, this is good cause to keep yourself safe. Nobody should ever depend on another to assist, even the police.


I think trust is the wrong word. Given that they can respond, most cops will go above and beyond to save a life or prevent violent crime. I say most because there are always exceptions to the rule.
You seem to be confused Nuts. What the cops were doing at the time, -- in general -- involves drugs. This is by far what the vast majority of copwork, paperwork, resources, and time goes to, fighting the drug war. So we can place the blame squarely on the war on drugs, and this family is simply yet another victim.

So if we want to prevent these things from happening in the future we need to allow the cops to be free to capture and apprehend real criminals instead of bogging them down fighting a pointless, unwinnable political war.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
#18
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
If the police are not obligated to enforce the law, then I as a citizen am under no obligation to recognize their power.
Your quote above seems like a total non sequitur and has not been explained. I know this thread has now become a little girlfight between you and Nuts, so you might not be interested in actual reason anymore, but if you wouldn't mind, could you flesh out the connection between the first and second ideas in your sentence? (beyond the juvenile "well it's a double standard and i don't like it so i'm going to rebel" argument)

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Old 09-15-2008
 
#19
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Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld View Post
You seem to be confused Nuts. What the cops were doing at the time, -- in general -- involves drugs. This is by far what the vast majority of copwork, paperwork, resources, and time goes to, fighting the drug war. So we can place the blame squarely on the war on drugs, and this family is simply yet another victim.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/cpp05pr.htm

Most common reason for police contact is traffic related. I would be interested to see any reference material you might have that indicates a majority of law enforcement resources go to fighting drugs. I think you have confused the glamorized reported incidents with that of real day to day law enforcement.

Quote:
So if we want to prevent these things from happening in the future we need to allow the cops to be free to capture and apprehend real criminals instead of bogging them down fighting a pointless, unwinnable political war.
Which is no fault of law enforcement and makes no real argument for legal redress for a citizen that feels they have been neglected.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
#20
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http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...the_money_goes

How long do police have to spend with a person caught doing 57 in a 45? How many of them are arrested and booked? How much paperwork do the cops have to fill out for each traffic stop? How long do they spend in prison and jail, and how long do their cases take to get through the gigantic bureaucracy and court system?

Well that depends on whether or not they had drugs in their car, to tell you the truth.

Traffic stops are not even remotely comparable in terms of both time and resources when compared to the war on drugs.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
#21
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Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld View Post
How long do police have to spend with a person caught doing 57 in a 45? How many of them are arrested and booked? How much paperwork do the cops have to fill out for each traffic stop? How long do they spend in prison and jail, and how long do their cases take to get through the gigantic bureaucracy and court system?
Have you ever seen a domestic battery report? I can guarantee you that a drug possession report is child's play by comparison. And while traffic violations may not comprise a majority of time spent on reports, I can say with certainty that drug arrests and the ensuing reports do not occupy nearly as much time as you claim. The reason why $16 billion is spent annually on drugs is clearly spelled out in your link; imprisonment. Let's not get off track here, we're talking about officers, not prison guards. Officers spend more time worrying about petty crimes and neighbors fighting over tree rights. And yes, those all require reports.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
#22
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Prisons are overcrowded with drug offenders meaning real criminals spend less time in prison and more time on the streets where they commit more crime. Also a dispute between neighbors usually doesn't end up with someone going to jail, which takes even longer and increases the $$$ spent exponentially. Domestic violence cases don't take any longer than drug cases, and cops don't have to actually "search" for domestic violence like they do with drugs. Also, there is no solution to the domestic violence problem, whereas we have a solution to the problem of otherwise law-abiding citizens being arrested for no reason, and that is to legalize drugs.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
#23
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Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld View Post
Prisons are overcrowded with drug offenders meaning real criminals spend less time in prison and more time on the streets where they commit more crime.
That conclusion is unfounded. Who is to say that drug convicts have any more priority over that of common criminals? Besides, drug convicts are not innocent of common crime either.

Quote:
Also a dispute between neighbors usually doesn't end up with someone going to jail, which takes even longer and increases the $$$ spent exponentially.
Patrol officers do not get dispatched to "drugs in progress" or "neighbor said he heard drugs next door." No, patrol officers get dispatched to domestics, disputes, petty theft, frauds, etc. So to say that drugs occupy a majority of a patrol officer's time is not completely accurate. True, you may well be able to claim that the war on drugs costs more resources on the overall grand scale, but not from a patrol standpoint, which is the crux of this issue.

Quote:
Domestic violence cases don't take any longer than drug cases, and cops don't have to actually "search" for domestic violence like they do with drugs.
That is categorically false. Domestic violence cases require interviews with family, bodily inspections, restraining orders and officer assisted vacation of residence. Oh yes, domestic violence takes a hell of a lot more time than a simple drug arrest.

Quote:
Also, there is no solution to the domestic violence problem, whereas we have a solution to the problem of otherwise law-abiding citizens being arrested for no reason, and that is to legalize drugs.
Very true, but that's not the issue at hand.
 
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Old 09-16-2008
 
#24
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Gorbet your example is bad as car accidents are not illegal (the driving leading to them may be). The officer would not be failing to enforce a law by not attempting to rescue the people in the car.
Assault is illegal too, but that does not necessarily mean that the police will wade straight into a fight to break it up if they feel that their safety would be compromised. Criminal damage is illegal, but a squad of six police may not necessarily try and stop a crowd of sixty anti-capitalist morons smashing up a McDonalds without more assistance.

Your initial post was 'The legal argument that the police are not required to provide assistance to citizens fails'. I'm reading that as your belief in a legal requirement for police to intervene when someone needs assistance, regardless of the circumstances that lead to them needing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattll
'Almost' refers to the fact that she managed to get into the car and lock the doors just a few moments before they reached her. She phoned the police while they were still following her around the car park. There had been other such incidents witnessed leading up to the event which included the same vehicle, and similar figures. They didn't even come that day, and when they did come, they didn't do anything, which, this being an attempted assault/robbery you would have thought they would have done, wouldn't you?
I wouldn't want to speculate because I have no idea about the situation from the police perspective. All I have is your take on events as described to you by your neighbour. Considering I have no idea about the police resources in your area, what other jobs the police may have been attending at the time and the options available to them when they did arrive I think it would be pointless to make guesses. When members of the public complain that the police 'didn't do anything' it's from their perspective where there is little to no understanding of police procedures and what the police are actually able to do rather than what members of the public think that they should do.
 
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Old 09-17-2008
 
#25
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Wow. I was actually just talking to my step-dad about this a few days ago. Before the 911 system was put into effect, many law enforcement officials (he's a deputy in my county) protested the idea because it, in the simplest terms, made police and other emergency response officials liable for any problems that could ensue. By rejecting that system, the police would not be liable. Being born and raised in the system of always having help to call, I see it as slightly immoral, but that's just a perspective, I suppose.
 
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Old 09-20-2008
 
#26
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It makes perfect sense to me though, legal immunity from response errors and whatnot. The 911 system makes great sense and would likely be used in a free-market alternative.

It emphasizes the inconsistency: You cannot rely on the police (especially if you live in a rural environment and you are restricted with respect to firearms.

 
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