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Old 02-08-2009
 
#61
United States givemeafingname
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

Quote:
If your a familiar or regular player of StarCraft you -will- not like the game for having a lack of macro, or will feel it is awkward and or incomplete. The game focuses more on a tactical approach.
I agree that a versed SC player will not like the absence of macro. But it's not only SC players that will not appreciate this. People who are familiar with the RTS genre will recognize this as well.

The crux of the problem is that DoW2 removes base building and macro, without adding any new strategic depth. There is less to keep track of, and this is why people are saying it is "dumbed down".

Quote:
Thanks for the biased reviews fanboys, keep it up.
If you want to read a thread that illustrates the problems with DoW2 in detail, take the following link and look for posts by the members "Chris" and "White Pointer". They are both pro DoW players, as well as software developers in the game industry.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=213063
 
 

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Old 02-08-2009
 
#62
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
The crux of the problem is that DoW2 removes base building and macro, without adding any new strategic depth. There is less to keep track of, and this is why people are saying it is "dumbed down".
And those people are morons. DoW2 has plenty of shit to keep track of. The difference is that the time you spend in SC looking at your base, is now transferred to keeping track of your enemy's army's makeup and upgrades, countering them effectively with the use of terrain and abilities, and ensuring effective victory point control.

DoW2 is a lot closer to WC3 than SC2, but it is vastly superior to WC3. And while it does have a few issues (ex. the slow matchmaking system) they are still working on the balance, and will be continuously just like Blizzard does.
 
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Old 02-08-2009
 
#63
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
If you want to read a thread that illustrates the problems with DoW2 in detail, take the following link and look for posts by the members "Chris" and "White Pointer". They are both pro DoW players, as well as software developers in the game industry.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=213063
I see a couple people commenting on base building being taken out of the game, which is, of course, their own skewed definition of what an RTS is.

Remember, innovation is bad, and everything has to be a clone of something that already succeeded!
 
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Old 02-08-2009
 
#64
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

Quote:
DoW2 is a lot closer to WC3 than SC2, but it is vastly superior to WC3. And while it does have a few issues (ex. the slow matchmaking system) they are still working on the balance, and will be continuously just like Blizzard does.
DoW2 really isn't really similar to WC3. Take the resource system for a good example. In WC3, economic superiority is critical to victory. In DoW2, victory is only dependent on victory points, which have little relation to your economic income. Strat points might give you a little more req, but it's been shown to be marginal.

The only thing I can imagine that you're referring to is the leveling system for units and heroes. Despite this shared mechanic between the two games, they remain very dissimilar for two RTS games.

Quote:
Remember, innovation is bad, and everything has to be a clone of something that already succeeded!
Here is a response from Chris, a user in relicforums.com that summs up why you are wrong very concisely.


Quote:
If DoW and its expansions have taught us anything it's that just because we CAN have something new and innovative, it doesn't automatically mean we should. Relic come up with new ideas by the dozen but they're not all necessarily GOOD ideas. The downward spiral of the expansions is testament to that.

My biggest concern when I learned that DoW2 would have no base building was; "OK, so base building is effectively removed, what will they add to this genre to make up for it?" First impressions from watching VODs and talking to players is... "not a lot". An even bigger concern for me now is that resource management has also been dumbed down considerably, in fact I'd go so far to say that it's a significant step backwards from CoH's resource model. No listening posts, no supply lines... nothing.
I really thought there would be more insight behind the debates in these forums. Instead you guys (demolition squid and meteora) are calling people who disagree with you 'morons' and 'fanboys'.

Quit arguing like a bunch of petulant children. Stop the name calling and back up your talk with some intelligent reasoning.
 

Last edited by givemeafingname; 02-08-2009 at 11:50 PM.
 

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Old 02-09-2009
 
#65
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

Quote:
Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
DoW2 really isn't really similar to WC3. Take the resource system for a good example. In WC3, economic superiority is critical to victory. In DoW2, victory is only dependent on victory points, which have little relation to your economic income. Strat points might give you a little more req, but it's been shown to be marginal.

The only thing I can imagine that you're referring to is the leveling system for units and heroes. Despite this shared mechanic between the two games, they remain very dissimilar for two RTS games.
I think he meant its more similar to WarCraft III because it focuses more on micro than macro; since hero units had a shitload of abilities. However I'm not too familiar with StarCraft and WarCraft being either macro or micro orientated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
I see a couple people commenting on base building being taken out of the game, which is, of course, their own skewed definition of what an RTS is.

Remember, innovation is bad, and everything has to be a clone of something that already succeeded!
I chuckled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
Here is a response from Chris, a user in relicforums.com that summs up why you are wrong very concisely.

I really thought there would be more insight behind the debates in these forums. Instead you guys (demolition squid and meteora) are calling people who disagree with you 'morons' and 'fanboys'.

Quit arguing like a bunch of petulant children. Stop the name calling and back up your talk with some intelligent reasoning.
I give you a good rep and this is what I deserve eh?

Aside from my obvious behavior in trolling these forums; I'd like to point out there is a heavy presence of people disliking the game just because its... Different. Different than StarCraft. It's like your not willing to give a try on a new game because it's not a masterpiece. They sort of see Dawn of War 2 and Warhammer 40K as a enemy to StarCraft 2. You'll have to realise that StarCraft is heavily based off of Warhammer 40K so it becomes a sensitive topic.

Anyways to defend myself furthermore there's some posters here who says Warhammer 40K is lame so I'll just see myself justified for trolling and calling some people (especially ones lacking insight) fanboys.

12,000 posts wingin' it's E-peen around, woot!

Edit: I'd give you more rep for actually calling me my existing username but I can't. A lot of people call me names from the past.
 
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Old 02-09-2009
 
#66
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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You'll have to realise that StarCraft is heavily based off of Warhammer 40K so it becomes a sensitive topic.
I keep seeing people say this. But no one ever has factual evidence. What are you basing it off? Because Zerg look like Tyranids?

Starcraft released on March 31st, 1998
Screenshots of Zerg in Starcraft were included in the box with Diablo, January 2nd 1997
The Tyranids in 1997, looked like this: http://album.warpshadow.com/v/Shadow...40K/2ndEdNids/
The Tyranid Codex was released in the year 2000, and at that timeseems to have been influenced by the Zerg: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3237106/Wa...yranids-4th-Ed

To me, it looks practically as if the Zerg influenced the Tyranid. People need to stop jumping on the bandwagon and saying OMG starcraft was based off Warhammer!

As if that's not enough. Someone on the gamefaqs message boards contacted Games Workshop and inquired about the "similarities" and the reply he got was that they believed it was coincidence.
 
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Old 02-09-2009
 
#67
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfGangGrimmer View Post
I keep seeing people say this. But no one ever has factual evidence. What are you basing it off? Because Zerg look like Tyranids?

Starcraft released on March 31st, 1998
Screenshots of Zerg in Starcraft were included in the box with Diablo, January 2nd 1997
The Tyranids in 1997, looked like this: http://album.warpshadow.com/v/Shadow...40K/2ndEdNids/
The Tyranid Codex was released in the year 2000, and at that timeseems to have been influenced by the Zerg: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3237106/Wa...yranids-4th-Ed

To me, it looks practically as if the Zerg influenced the Tyranid. People need to stop jumping on the bandwagon and saying OMG starcraft was based off Warhammer!

As if that's not enough. Someone on the gamefaqs message boards contacted Games Workshop and inquired about the "similarities" and the reply he got was that they believed it was coincidence.
Well aside from the similarities I believe there was a mention that StarCraft was supposed to be a board game based off of Warhammer 40K; but I'm not so sure. I'll have to dig in a bit with Google to find some facts.

Just to point out for all of you, lots sci-fi has your basic human, advanced alien and not-so-advanced-alien-but-scary-one. Alien vs Predator and Halo are examples.
 
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Old 02-09-2009
 
#68
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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Originally Posted by Meteora View Post
Well aside from the similarities I believe there was a mention that StarCraft was supposed to be a board game based off of Warhammer 40K; but I'm not so sure. I'll have to dig in a bit with Google to find some facts.
http://www.geocities.com/area51/comet/2481/beta.html

Blizzard's notion to start a science fiction computer game did start with the attempted acquiring of a Star Wars license, but that never went through. The only game that is ambiguous in true origins would be WarCraft, but StarCraft has no history of ever being a WH40K game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteora View Post
Just to point out for all of you, lots sci-fi has your basic human, advanced alien and not-so-advanced-alien-but-scary-one. Alien vs Predator and Halo are examples.
No one disputes that. Even Warhammer 40K is based off this archetype. Everyone does dispute the StarCraft-Warhammer 40k line though.
 
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Old 02-09-2009
 
#69
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

It is generally accepted fact that Starcraft is heavily influenced by 40k. Some basic googling will validate this.

Quote:
Aside from my obvious behavior in trolling these forums; I'd like to point out there is a heavy presence of people disliking the game just because its... Different. Different than StarCraft. It's like your not willing to give a try on a new game because it's not a masterpiece. They sort of see Dawn of War 2 and Warhammer 40K as a enemy to StarCraft 2. You'll have to realise that StarCraft is heavily based off of Warhammer 40K so it becomes a sensitive topic.
It's not that I dislike it because it's different. I dislike it because it's not as much fun as its predecessor, DoW1.

I'm not a troll trying to stir things up. I am a veteran of the 40k franchise and have been playing DoW since vanilla beta. My opinions are not established on blind 'fanboyism.' Hell, I've been a Games-Workshop hobbiest for more than a decade, so me saying that DoW2 is a sub-par game is about as objective as opinions get.

I know a good 40k game when I play one. The games I have played include the following:

40k: 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed
Inquisitor
Gorkamorka
Battlefleet Gothic
Hive fleet
Final Liberation
Chaos Gate
Space Hulk (video and board)
Fire Warrior
Dawn of War: vanilla, winter assault, dark crusade, soulstorm
Dawn of War 2: been playing since closed beta, >3 weeks

I love the 40k franchise, but I know what's a good game and what isn't. DoW2 isn't horrible, but it is a step backwards in 40k RTS, imo. I just want to point out that the long time DoW community is in general agreement with this sentiment.
 
 

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Old 02-09-2009
 
#70
Canada Meteora
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacaier View Post
http://www.geocities.com/area51/comet/2481/beta.html

Blizzard's notion to start a science fiction computer game did start with the attempted acquiring of a Star Wars license, but that never went through. The only game that is ambiguous in true origins would be WarCraft, but StarCraft has no history of ever being a WH40K game.


No one disputes that. Even Warhammer 40K is based off this archetype. Everyone does dispute the StarCraft-Warhammer 40k line though.
I can't quite find StarWars anywhere in that article using Ctrl-F. But I'll just say this: everyone steals from everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
It is generally accepted fact that Starcraft is heavily influenced by 40k. Some basic googling will validate this.



It's not that I dislike it because it's different. I dislike it because it's not as much fun as its predecessor, DoW1.

I'm not a troll trying to stir things up. I am a veteran of the 40k franchise and have been playing DoW since vanilla beta. My opinions are not established on blind 'fanboyism.' Hell, I've been a Games-Workshop hobbiest for more than a decade, so me saying that DoW2 is a sub-par game is about as objective as opinions get.

I know a good 40k game when I play one. The games I have played include the following:

40k: 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed
Inquisitor
Gorkamorka
Battlefleet Gothic
Hive fleet
Final Liberation
Chaos Gate
Space Hulk (video and board)
Fire Warrior
Dawn of War: vanilla, winter assault, dark crusade, soulstorm
Dawn of War 2: been playing since closed beta, >3 weeks

I love the 40k franchise, but I know what's a good game and what isn't. DoW2 isn't horrible, but it is a step backwards in 40k RTS, imo. I just want to point out that the long time DoW community is in general agreement with this sentiment.
Alright, thanks for your clarification then.
 
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Old 02-09-2009
 
#71
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

Quote:
Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
It is generally accepted fact that Starcraft is heavily influenced by 40k. Some basic googling will validate this.
I hate to continue this StarCraft-Warhammer 40k debate, but I would hate it more to let this notion become norm. Basic Googling does not lead you to any reputable source. The searches will bring up forums, personal blogs/reviews, and other baseless assumptions. I can agree that there is some influence, but the degree can be entirely debated.

To iterate: There is no solid evidence linking Blizzard's StarCraft to Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000.
 
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Old 02-09-2009
 
#72
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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Originally Posted by givemeafingname View Post
DoW2 really isn't really similar to WC3. Take the resource system for a good example. In WC3, economic superiority is critical to victory. In DoW2, victory is only dependent on victory points, which have little relation to your economic income. Strat points might give you a little more req, but it's been shown to be marginal.
you kinda forgot to mention the importance of power and securing your gens from harrasment and the importance of req has extreamly incresed with the latest patch, since they start at +10 req and go up to +35 in some 90s, if the req point gets decaped it resets back to +10, making it quite important to secure around 2 +35 req points from being decaped
 
 

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Old 02-09-2009
 
#73
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

I read the first couple of pages of that really long thread (over 450 responses!)

What do the terms "gen" and "IG" mean?
 

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Old 02-09-2009
 
#74
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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Originally Posted by Kimera757* View Post
I read the first couple of pages of that really long thread (over 450 responses!)

What do the terms "gen" and "IG" mean?
gen=generators, when you capture power nodes on the map you can upgrade the node and build up to 3 generators to it, but if the enemy captures the node they get all the benefit from the generators
IG=Imperial Guard
 
 

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Old 02-09-2009
 
#75
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Default Re: Dawn of War 2 Not the Holy Grail REVIEW

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
And those people are morons. DoW2 has plenty of shit to keep track of. The difference is that the time you spend in SC looking at your base, is now transferred to keeping track of your enemy's army's makeup and upgrades, countering them effectively with the use of terrain and abilities, and ensuring effective victory point control.

DoW2 is a lot closer to WC3 than SC2, but it is vastly superior to WC3. And while it does have a few issues (ex. the slow matchmaking system) they are still working on the balance, and will be continuously just like Blizzard does.
ha! i find that rather hard to believe. dow1 was enjoyable if limited but dow2 seems to have, by many accounts, reduced the series to DOTA-level complexity. wc3, by contrast, is conceptually a fairly standard RTS which, owing to its excellent balance and depth, is rightly lauded. and of course, story-wise, you can't compare the two- even wc3's rather identikit fantasy setting is immeasurably more interesting than the wh40k universe's wholesale creative piracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteora View Post
You'll have to realise that StarCraft is heavily based off of Warhammer 40K so it becomes a sensitive topic.

Anyways to defend myself furthermore there's some posters here who says Warhammer 40K is lame so I'll just see myself justified for trolling and calling some people (especially ones lacking insight) fanboys.
lol, as if. warhammer and starcraft are worlds apart creatively. also, starcraft is cool and wh40k isn't, not in the least. (no offense to people who dig wh40k, this is just my opinion. as always, people should like what they like)
 

Last edited by chief rocka; 02-09-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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