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Old 07-10-2008
 
#16
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Originally Posted by Engage View Post
@Zero

IMHO, the only reason Terran are on par with Protoss is because this is a videogame. "In real life", Protoss would PWN the puny little humans, no question.
You're both right and wrong. In the beginning, before the Zerg invasion of Aiur, the protoss could've wiped out the terran easily. After the invasion, however, the protoss numbers have dwindled. And remember, the protoss are like the hybrid cars of the galaxy, they are very efficient and try not to be very wasteful while the terran are like big Ford trucks, not exactly very efficient, but very powerful. Just because the protoss tech is more advanced and efficient doesn't mean their tech is that much more powerful in terms of raw destructive power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangarde
What about a Xel'Naga/Hybrid Hybrid! That's clearly the best direction for this story.
Why? Unless of course the Xel'Naga were to transfer their consciousnesses into the Hybrid bodies, merging them would only make the Hybrid weaker and defeat the purpose of the race altogether. As far as we know, the Xel'Naga are not part of a hive-mind, and their intention for the perfect race was a oneness of mind.
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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The Protoss have the purity of form; i.e. they have a very powerful innate mental presence (telepathy, psionics). However, they lack the Zerg's purity of essence; i.e. the communal drive to improve and the value of the whole over the individual. The teachings of Khas (that is, the Khala), reasserted this to a slight degree, but was hardly a perfect system.

The Zerg, conversely, have the purity of essence to the extreme, driving it to the bleeding edge through forced evolution. They do, however, lack the powerful psionics of the Protoss (purity of form), and thusly must work through agents (the Cerebrates, Kerrigan) to amplify what power the swarm possesses.

The Terrans' lack the Protoss' purity of form, and, with all their in-fighting, most definitely lack the Zerg's purity of essence. However, through adaptability and a sheer will to survive, the Koprulu exiles just barely manage to keep holding on. More importantly, however, it is the the Terrans' willingness to play dirty and even cheat (remember the Psi Disruptor?) that ultimately spares them from the flame.


The Hybrids, on the other hand, have both purity of form and essence. This means that, against any one faction, its two advantages against just one. They can, conceivably, make use of any natural advantage that either the Zerg or Protoss possess, and do so more efficiently than either.

The Terrans, of course, are slightly better off, since their advantage means that its impossible to prepare for any trump card which they might bring to the table (doubly so in regards to the UED), but their comparative military frailty in contrast to the other two races is a considerable handicap.
 

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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Engage View Post
IMHO, the only reason Terran are on par with Protoss is because this is a videogame. "In real life", Protoss would PWN the puny little humans, no question.
For example, I doubt that the Protoss would have to pay so much to actually warp their troops to the battlefield. But even in the game, the Protoss are always disadvantaged when it comes to numbers, which is why it's balanced.

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Originally Posted by vIsitor View Post
The Protoss have the purity of form; i.e. they have a very powerful innate mental presence (telepathy, psionics).
Nobody actually knows what the purity of form is, it could be that but it can also refer to their physical features i.e. speed & strength, no physical flaws/blemishes. It could even refer to their complete lack of a digestive system - they can't eat, therefore they can't absorb any major toxins, combined with the fact that they survive via sunlight (which is known to remove toxins from the skin as well) their bodies are virtually toxin-free and thus they have a purity of form - allowing them to live for centuries. How does the sundrop drug from the DT Saga factor into this? Well, I'm going to assume that it's worse for Protoss than it is for humans; however, Alzaddar did undergo a detoxification process.
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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When I am thinking of the Hybrids, I am think of Protoss looking guys, thinking like the Zerg. Really powerful guys with no free will.
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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I think the approach to Hybrids will be very Lovecraftian. They won't necessarily be a threat due to brute force, but because their very existence undermines and erases some fundamental conceptions the characters have about the Universe (in Lovecraft's words "the thing that should not be").
At least that was the mood and direction of "Dark Origins".
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Hybrids are basically the union of Purity of form and Purity of essence.

Now the Zerg purity of essence is their logistic capabilities. Their regeneration, their production speed, their superiour harvesting capabilities (drones harvest a bit better than SCVs or probes), the fact that they have only one building for producing units, the fact that their entire base is a giant organism, etc. They are intrinsically powerful - naturally strong, agile and psionically capable.

The Protoss have purity of form, which connotes that while they are not intrinsically as powerful as the Zerg, their extrinsic power is formidable. Their intelligence is formidable, and from it is derived their psionic and technological capabilities. AFAIK: The Protoss Archon represents the core nature of the Protoss, characterised by a powerfully psionic exterior encapsulating a rather frail body

When this purity of essence is combined with the purity of form, you get something quite epic: a powerful metabolism coupled with intense psionic focus. Because this creature has Zerg metabolism, which is superior to the average Protoss metabolism, it is naturally capable of much more psionic manipulation than the average protoss. Because this creature has Protoss psionics, which are used to enhance the strength and agility of the Protoss warrior, it's physical actions are greatly bolstered. The effective is resonant, with the Zerg metabolism enhancing the Protoss psionics which enhances the Zerg metabolism again and the cycle repeats. The cumulative effects are bound to be pretty damn awesome.

Basically, these creatures are awesomeness personified. And I want to play with one of them soon.


 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Kungai View Post
Now the Zerg purity of essence is their logistic capabilities. Their regeneration, their production speed, their superiour harvesting capabilities (drones harvest a bit better than SCVs or probes), the fact that they have only one building for producing units, the fact that their entire base is a giant organism, etc. They are intrinsically powerful - naturally strong, agile and psionically capable.
Sorry, that's wrong. If that were true, then how did the Xel'Naga believe that the protoss had the purity of essence for centuries, maybe even millenia?

The purity of essence is the oneness of mind. The entire race and every being within it working toward the overall good of the race. This is why the zerg have no qualms with throwing away the lives of their warriors because it is for the overall good, in order to win the battle. It's a selfless devotion. And that's what the Xel'Naga thought that the protoss had, but once they started pursuing selfish motivations, the Xel'Naga knew that the protoss lacked the purity of essence, and left.
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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I was being sarcastic earlier.

Anyway, the Zerg purity of essence is as Zero says, while I believe the Protoss purity of form is their individual power (strong bodies, intelligent, psionic abilities) but also encapsulates their rigidness and unwillingness to adapt - and also their individualistic and non-hivemind like nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcraft Manual
The Protoss became very proud and began to see more value in personal achievements than communal advancement.
This is as they were losing their purity of essence and becoming a 'failed creation'. They became egotistical, which is exactly what the Zerg are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcraft Manual
The Khala [was] primarily meant to define a rigid system of behavior...
Defining a rigid system of rules was they only way they could get along. We all know how they couldn't even bring themselves to accept the Dark Templar back even when faced with their own extinction.

I don't think that purity of form and purity of essence are opposites like Light Side and Dark Side. They are just words that describe what it is that makes the Protoss and Zerg what they are. It's actually quite hard to imagine what the Hybrid will be like as a mix of these things.
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Vangarde View Post
Defining a rigid system of rules was they only way they could get along.
Not strictly true, that was just Conclave propaganda.

The Khala was a temporary cure, enabling the Protoss to stop hating each other (at the end of the Aeon of Strife). It wasn't necessary to keep it (and, as we saw, the Dark Templar did not go mad, Ulrezaj being an individual exception). However, it was a source of strength, just not the only one available to the Protoss.

Quote:
We all know how they couldn't even bring themselves to accept the Dark Templar back even when faced with their own extinction.
They were intolerant because of the Khala.
 

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Old 07-10-2008
 
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From what I can gather is this:

Purity of form = power of the individual. The Protoss are inherently strong individuals, each with their own formidable power, physically and mentally. The Khala is but a false purity of essence, lacking oneness.

Purity of essence = power of society. The Zerg have no individuals. Thus, they have the oneness. BUT, then there's the Kerrigan, the individual... I suppose both races have anomalies creeping in...

And in a broader sense, Starcraft is but a battle for indiviudality. Don't submit to the confederacy/dominion. Don't be infested. Don't be Khala-like (The DT are the sympathetic ones, after all). And my preferrable interpretation is capitalism vs. socialism.

But that could be over the top. And off-topic?
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Kimera757* View Post
They were intolerant because of the Khala.
Depends how you mean. If you mean they were like "Well we'd like to accept the DTs but the Khala says no...." then no. If you look at Aldaris' behaviour in SC he clearly has this single-minded racist-like intolerance of the Dark Templar to an irrational level.
If you mean the Khala drove them to that mindset then to that I say 'perhaps'.
 
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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Hm... It appears I have allwasy had the wrong understanding of purity of form and essence...

Then I gues it would be safe to put it this way:

Zerg:
Work as a greater whole, able to adapt rapidly accross the whole race and comunicate almost immidiately through a genetic hierarchy. Able to respond to any threats very rapidly. Genetically advanced.

Protoss:
Individualy powerfull, able to focus their minds to form shields and weaponry through crystals on their armour. Technologically advanced.


Hybrids:
I belive these creatures may be far more horrific then initialy anticipated. One creature tanks if you will.

Work as a greater whole, able to adapt rapidly accross the whole race and comunicate almost immidiately through a genetic heirarchy. Individually powerfull, able to focus their minds on forming protective shields, and enhance their physical attacks through psionic capabilities. Both genetically and technologically advanced.


This may be a prime example of a basic Hybrid unit:

Defense: 2 (+1)Type: LightMovement: Fast
Psionic Claws
Damage: 12 (+2)
Attacks: 2
Range: 1
Speed: Fast
Targets: Ground
Hit Points: 120
Shield: 80
Modifiers: Biological
Size: Small


I know, its just a combination of the Zealot and Zergling, but its just a guestimate.
 
 

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Old 07-10-2008
 
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I wonder if their psionic power will be greater as their numbers grow (eg they get new or stronger abilities based on the plot).

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Originally Posted by Vangarde View Post
Depends how you mean. If you mean they were like "Well we'd like to accept the DTs but the Khala says no...." then no. If you look at Aldaris' behaviour in SC he clearly has this single-minded racist-like intolerance of the Dark Templar to an irrational level.
If you mean the Khala drove them to that mindset then to that I say 'perhaps'.
The followers of the Khala believe that, without the Khala, Protoss go insane and would create a new Aeon of Strife. Aldaris was simply following his religious beliefs, intolerant though they were.

He changed his mind upon seeing the Dark Templar obviously being sane, and killing those Cerebrates.
 

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Old 07-10-2008
 
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Sorry, that's wrong. If that were true, then how did the Xel'Naga believe that the protoss had the purity of essence for centuries, maybe even millenia?
Don't be so quick to dismiss it. Firstly, this is looking at it through gameplay perspective, mainly. I have spoken only of Zerg racial traits - traits that make them capable of having purity of essence. Secondly, the Xel' Naga would have believed that the protoss technology and psionics compensated for their other logistical deficiencies. They probably believed that the Protoss psionic link ensured that they would function in unity. But ultimately, even in the game, it is the Zerg who have a base that is a single, giant organism, not the Protoss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero View Post
The purity of essence is the oneness of mind. The entire race and every being within it working toward the overall good of the race. This is why the zerg have no qualms with throwing away the lives of their warriors because it is for the overall good, in order to win the battle. It's a selfless devotion. And that's what the Xel'Naga thought that the protoss had, but once they started pursuing selfish motivations, the Xel'Naga knew that the protoss lacked the purity of essence, and left.
That is ALSO correct, but that is a more philosophical perspective of it. After all, in the game, the Zerg are known for their dependece on numbers while the Protoss are conversely known for wreaking havoc with few units.

Essence, by definition, is the attribute (or set of attributes) that make an object or substance what it fundamentally is. So it is both the oneness of mind AND the logistical unity that makes the Zerg have purity of essence. No Zerg unit is capable of singlehandedly taking on a Protoss or Terran unit of the same level, but the Zerg cost less, are produced faster, regenerate and have abilities like Dark Swarm that supplement/complement their units functioning together to take down powerful enemies.

Conversely, form, by definition, is
the external appearance or configuration of a thing. So purity of form would mean that the extrinsic attributes of a thing are perfect, even if only on a theoretical level. Which is what the protoss have: their psionics and technology are both derived from and complemented by their individuality - thus causing them to seriously lack purity of essence. Yet, most individual Protoss units are capable of killing several of their Zerg and Terran counterparts - abilties like psi-storm allow the Protoss to singlehandedly devastate armies - with almost no real requirement to function with the same cooperation as the Zerg.



Anyhow, when these two facets are combined, they are sure to be incredibly powerful. Like a horde of shielded, psi-storm casting cracklings. Scary...

 
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Old 07-11-2008
 
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I think the hybrids are going to be more powerful because:

Protoss are plants

Zerg are animals

Plant + Animal = Hybrid

You get the awesome energy absorbtion of being a plant, the long life, with the rigid ness and adaptability of being an animal.
 
 

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