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Old 01-31-2009
 
#16
United States Ben
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Yes, quite. Turns out it applies here as well.
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#17
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And a recession of this magnitude as never happened before.
Ummm any of the gold-standard caused panics of the late 19th century and the Great Depression were all much worse than the current recession.

That's why central banking was created, as a way to keep economies from crashing like clockwork every fifteen to twenty years or so thanks to the gold standard.
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#18
United States Ben
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Central banking is not fiat currency, those are all examples of central banking caused crashes.
 
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Unlike the homogenous clones
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#19
United States Chaos
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Central banking didn't exist at least in organized nationwide form before the early 20th century. And it was created because fiat currency, not in general but in specific the gold standard, was fucking over farmers and others regularly every 15 to 20 years. Hell, we almost elected Bryan in 1896 on a silver standard platform because the gold standard was so hated by the Midwest.
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#20
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Hey chaos, my bar of gold hasn't exactly gone down like the economy .
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#21
United States Chaos
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That has nothing to do with how things were 130 years ago.
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#22
United States Ben
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Central banking didn't exist at least in organized nationwide form before the early 20th century. And it was created because fiat currency, not in general but in specific the gold standard, was fucking over farmers and others regularly every 15 to 20 years. Hell, we almost elected Bryan in 1896 on a silver standard platform because the gold standard was so hated by the Midwest.
Banks were allowed to issue their own promissory notes, but only against government mandated specie and at the exchange ratios the government mandated, with interest rates still commanded by state governments. If you want to argue that "central banking" is not the correct phrase to use to designate that system, I could see where you are coming from, but crashes were still caused by the inability of a central government to calculate a "correct" value for money.
 
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Unlike the homogenous clones
I'm in to earth tones, birth stones, and erogenous zones
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And before that was Canarcie
I'm a disturbed and bitter herb
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#23
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There has never been a true gold standard. Nevertheless, the problem is fractional reserve banking.

In Murray Rothbard's "A history of money and banking in the United States", which outlines pre-WW2 all the way back to the inception of the United States, he points out that paper money was always abused in its creation given its underlying specie. And when the people wanted to convert their wortheless paper into specie due to rampant inflation, the government usually intervened and banned convertability to specie.

Since the beginning of banking the same thing has been happening: massive pyramid scheme protected by government.
 

Last edited by Kaizen; 01-31-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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"Liberty, or Freedome, signifieth (properly) the absence of opposition; (by Opposition, I mean externall Impediments of motion) and may be applied no lesse to Irrationall, and Inanimate creatures, that to Rationall.

And according to this proper, and generally received meaning of the word, a free man, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to doe what he has a will to."

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan.

So close... Yet so far.
 

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Old 01-31-2009
 
#24
United States Chaos
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Banks were allowed to issue their own promissory notes, but only against government mandated specie and at the exchange ratios the government mandated, with interest rates still commanded by state governments. If you want to argue that "central banking" is not the correct phrase to use to designate that system, I could see where you are coming from, but crashes were still caused by the inability of a central government to calculate a "correct" value for money.
That might be the case for, say, the Panic of 1837, but not for the Panic of 1857, Black Friday in 1869, the Panic of 1873, or the Panic of 1893. All of those were directly related to fiat currency, especially Black Friday in 1869 and the Panics of 1857 and 1893.

Jay Gould tried to corner the entire world gold market in 1869 and fucked things up for an entire decade. The Panic of 1857 probably wouldn't have happened if 30,000 pounds of gold hadn't been lost off the North Carolina coast on a US vessel in a hurricane.

It could even be argued that the prosperity of the 20th century depended almost entirely in the beginning on the discovery of the huge gold deposits on the Witwatersrand in South Africa just before World War I.

Basing your economy on the supply of a not really that abundant metal was and is a bad idea.
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#25
United States Ben
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That might be the case for, say, the Panic of 1837, but not for the Panic of 1857, Black Friday in 1869, the Panic of 1873, or the Panic of 1893. All of those were directly related to fiat currency, especially Black Friday in 1869 and the Panics of 1857 and 1893.
Not sure what you mean by fiat currency here. Fiat means money that is only backed by the government's fiat, by its command that it must be accepted as legal tender.

There are definitely valid arguments against gold, or at least against a 100% gold standard. The advantage of free banking is that notes would be promised against whatever the market demanded. Some mix of precious metals is likely the best way to go, because they have distinct advantages, but the government cannot "calculate" outside of a market for precious metal what the exchange ratios or interest rates on them ought to be.
 
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What's happening?
I keep my dreadlocks in a napkin ring
Rap and sing
Unlike the homogenous clones
I'm in to earth tones, birth stones, and erogenous zones
The more ticklish the more you have
Sitting on the curb of what used to be the burbs
And before that was Canarcie
I'm a disturbed and bitter herb
Like saltwater and parsley

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Old 01-31-2009
 
#26
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What if the spending of that money was already approved years ago before the crisis? They can't really turn it around. Or can they?
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizen View Post
Since the beginning of banking the same thing has been happening: massive pyramid scheme protected by government.
That's basically the cut of it. The entire global financial system is in essence a giant ponzi scheme. Fractional reserve banking is a fraud so complete and venal that it demands to be destroyed beyond the power of memory to recall it's existence.

It's very structure alone is what created the business cycle, and hence the first great depression as well as the one we're currently embarking upon.



Once you understand how the financial system works, an ultimate meltdown of the entire world economy goes without saying.
 
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"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight-of-hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin. But if you want to continue to be slaves of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit."

- Josiah Charles, President of the Bank of England & 2nd richest man in Great Britain (1880-1941)
 

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