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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Discussion on balance

I'm bored. Don't close this.

Anyways, I'm always hearing two common statements about Starcraft:

- It's the closest to a perfectly balanced RTS that anyone's ever gotten
- Protoss sucks

Those two premises lead me to the conclusion that the game's balance is almost perfect with the exception of the Protoss race.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

I've heard numerous players say they started out as a Protoss player, but then changed. Prodigy told me he did. I think Nesh did, too. Smaq did, as well, and I've come very close to changing races myself.

Why do you think this is? I've never heard of a Zerg or Terran player going "Terran/Zerg sucks, I'm going to go be Protoss!"

I personally think it's the cost of things. The Protoss spells are arguably the best in the game (area of effect damage (storm), crowd control (stasis, maelstrom), recall, etc.) but each is very costly both in terms of resources, energy, and the amount of time the effect lasts. Maelstrom, for example, is expensive and only lasts a few seconds, and disruption web is very expensive.

Scouts are also incredibly expensive, but quite powerful.

Now, let's look at one things common to all human players regardless of race: mistakes.

If I make a mistake, and lose a control group of units, it could very well cost me the game. If a Terran player loses a group of M&M, he'll just make another group and continue on. If a Zerg player loses a group of hydralisks and zerglings, it really doesn't matter.

So, I think that the imbalance is directly due to the inherent factor of human error not being accounted for. It's impossible for a player to be perfect, save Bisu, and so Protoss players will alwyas be screwed.

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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

The reason behind the saying "Protoss suck" is most likely because the amount of players that don't know proper BO's and counters and they try doing 12 different techs at once, thus screwing them up.

And to hell with scouts, their ground attack sucks ass, and if you're gonna use em for air defence, use sairs instead.
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

I was also talking about Protoss players who know what they're doing. I know the proper build orders and counters for the type of stuff I'd encounter in a standard game.

Scouts don't suck; they're awesome against devourers. Their ground attack sucks when it's just one scout, but when you have a group of them flying around it makes anything pretty easy to take down.
 

 

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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Being a noob that was owned by 36 of rpf's scouts, I beg to differ...

Scouts CAN be very good, but only if you get shit-loads.... They're so good in numbers that they're depressing

<3 rob

EDIT: Lol ! You posted faster =P
Wrt to the discussion, I believe that the Protoss are just harder to use for those that whine about it...
"O_O ooo Protoss SUX ass, I can't move a goon without it tripping on it's elongated reproductive organ..."

People who play Protoss think differently from Terran or Zerg. Playing perfect is important for this race, and not so much so for the other two...

Protoss are under-used imo. More players should start playing this race because even though it's tech is not as flexible as zerg, the units' uses are...

I might not be making sense here, but if I am, I am indeed making a point !
 

Last edited by protoswarrior; 04-02-2007 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Exactly. Scouts are incredible in numbers.

Do you think the extreme cost of different units contributes to the balance problem?
 

 

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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

I think in regards to cost, Protoss have it correct except for maybe some units - scouts come mind as well as reavers... 200/100 is a lot for 1 reaver AND you have to BUY your scarabs.... which is ridiculous.

Why don't siege tanks BUY THEIR Arclite cannon shells???
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

The game is balanced, and the protoss don't suck. How do you explain the extremely surprising results of the Superfight Race War? *spoiler*
Round1:

Jaedong > Nada @ Monty Hall
Midas > Nal_ra @ Geometry
Bisu > Savior @ Nemesis

Round2:

Oov > Savior @ Geometry
Bisu > Nada @ Monty Hall
July > Anytime @ Nemesis

Round3:

Oov > Jaedong @ Nemesis
Anytime > Midas @ Geometry
Nal_ra > July @ Monty Hall

protoss wins.


There are so many other factors besides unit cost, and I don't want to repeat what I've already stated in past threads since this thread is going to get closed anyways.. But SC is the most balanced rts and it's more of personal preference, of which race you want to choose. So rpf, don't be compelled to change your race just because others changed toss ftw!
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Bisu[Shield] is the shit man. With Protoss, after Giyom, I've never seen another player with such a fluid style who knows how to act and react like the old schoolers. I watched Bisu's replays yesterday and man is he good with goon micro in...

P V Z ! ! !

I was amazed. I mean, even his loss games were elegant enough to watch O_O
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

I always said that as P you need to be a bit better than your T or Z opponent to beat him.

And Bisu didn't disprove shit, he just outplays people with his strats, he's the exception that confirms the rule.
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

His unit control is really good though; his strats only strengthen that fact about his gameplay. As I said, Giyom is the only other player I find that has that good unit control and is thus able to use Protoss strats to his advantage.

To confirm your point, Benny, Protoss players need to be smarter to be at par/beat their T or Z counterparts...
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Quote:
Anyways, I'm always hearing two common statements about Starcraft:

- It's the closest to a perfectly balanced RTS that anyone's ever gotten
- Protoss sucks

Those two premises lead me to the conclusion that the game's balance is almost perfect with the exception of the Protoss race.

Do you agree or disagree with that?
From my perspective Protoss is overpowered. Quit whining and learn2play. I spent weeks playing and losing to Staind and lazyling working out how to play vrs P's in a macrowar. Do something similar to help you out instead of typing gg and crying out imbalance.

Quote:
I've heard numerous players say they started out as a Protoss player, but then changed. Prodigy told me he did. I think Nesh did, too. Smaq did, as well, and I've come very close to changing races myself.

Why do you think this is? I've never heard of a Zerg or Terran player going "Terran/Zerg sucks, I'm going to go be Protoss!"
I started out playing zerg on multiplayer and I continue to play zerg on multiplayer. I'd switch to Protoss if I didn't have to relearn pretty much the whole game again. That and the fact that the probe hotkey is all the way on the other side of the keyboard compared to all the zerg hotkeys is frustrating by itself. I have enough headaches from having u for burrow as it is. (as a side note s for scourge blows, too.)

Quote:
I personally think it's the cost of things. The Protoss spells are arguably the best in the game (area of effect damage (storm), crowd control (stasis, maelstrom), recall, etc.) but each is very costly both in terms of resources, energy, and the amount of time the effect lasts. Maelstrom, for example, is expensive and only lasts a few seconds, and disruption web is very expensive.
They may not be the best in the game, but they're definately the most useful. Aside from ZvT where there's constant use of irridiate and almost as much use of swarm/plague, what other matchup has spell usage that can compare to Protoss use in PvZ PvT PvP?

Maelstrom and disruption web are both very deadly, too, when used in bundle with psi storm.

Quote:
If I make a mistake, and lose a control group of units, it could very well cost me the game. If a Terran player loses a group of M&M, he'll just make another group and continue on. If a Zerg player loses a group of hydralisks and zerglings, it really doesn't matter.
It does matter, to both T and Z just as equally as it matters to the P. If it seems to you like it doesn't, they're macro'ing better than you are.

Quote:
It's impossible for a player to be perfect, save Bisu, and so Protoss players will alwyas be screwed.
It's fine, learn2play. Bisu isn't perfect either.
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Darko there is a program which ables you to remap hotkeys, i don't remember it's name but i'm sure there is one. Mabye someone else remembers.

Anyways, rpf, it'd be better if you played all this time instead of theorycrafting =P
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Quote:
If a Terran player loses a group of M&M, he'll just make another group and continue on. If a Zerg player loses a group of hydralisks and zerglings, it really doesn't matter.
lol you play moneymaps or what?
if a T looses his m&m group in early/mid game cause of bad unit control he is pretty much screwed.

Quote:
I've heard numerous players say they started out as a Protoss player, but then changed
this is only because toss is the easiest race for beginners. later on you want to try the other races and maybe you think its funnier to play them then or whatever.
also seeing to the pros and on bnet (as well as our blizzforum chart) the amout of players play toss is equal to the amount of players playing zerg as well as ran.

Quote:
And to hell with scouts, their ground attack sucks ass, and if you're gonna use em for air defence, use sairs instead.
FFS BULLET! weve already had this discussion. scouts are extremly good at taking out cruisers, carriers and devourers. sairs really suck against those. i proved this both by mathematics and by two ums maps. both with and without upgrades. so please, scouts are good, but only agains higharmoured large airunits.
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Quote:
FFS BULLET! weve already had this discussion. scouts are extremly good at taking out cruisers, carriers and devourers. sairs really suck against those. i proved this both by mathematics and by two ums maps. both with and without upgrades. so please, scouts are good, but only agains higharmoured large airunits.
We had this a long time ago, and I left out early, so I don't remember much, sorry. But if you have carrier + sairs, which I'm pretty sure is what the combo is, wouldn't that work? And for a group of 6 Bcs, how many would you need to take em out?
 
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Old 04-02-2007
 
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Default Re: Discussion on balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise View Post
The game is balanced, and the protoss don't suck. How do you explain the extremely surprising results of the Superfight Race War? *spoiler*
Round1:

Jaedong > Nada @ Monty Hall
Midas > Nal_ra @ Geometry
Bisu > Savior @ Nemesis

Round2:

Oov > Savior @ Geometry
Bisu > Nada @ Monty Hall
July > Anytime @ Nemesis

Round3:

Oov > Jaedong @ Nemesis
Anytime > Midas @ Geometry
Nal_ra > July @ Monty Hall

protoss wins.


There are so many other factors besides unit cost, and I don't want to repeat what I've already stated in past threads since this thread is going to get closed anyways.. But SC is the most balanced rts and it's more of personal preference, of which race you want to choose. So rpf, don't be compelled to change your race just because others changed toss ftw!
That fact that those results are *SURPRISING* proves my point. If the game was *BALANCED,* there wouldn't be any surprise.
 

 

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