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Old 10-26-2008
 
#46
Argentina Norfindel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archerofaiur View Post
So, and correct me if I am interpreting this the wrong way but you are saying that if we just started out with all our resource already available there would not be this growth in warmachine production as the game goes on? Mineral mining provides a task players have to complete in order to exponentially grow their infrastructure?

Is mining fun?

Is mining necessary?
The mining mechanic seems to be designed to send the players out of their bases, and fight all over the map. It's necessary, and forces the player to scout, expand, and try to kill enemy expansions, which is fun, because of the complexity of the task.

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Originally Posted by Archerofaiur View Post
Lol Not to beat a dead horse but why is direct combat more exciting then building stuff? Although it may seem obvious it is actually a really tough question to answer.
Probably because human males have a pre-disposition to violence.

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Originally Posted by Archerofaiur View Post
I am fairly ok with most of this reasoning although I think you should clarify what determines if something is or is not natural. What do these three examples tell you about when game processes should or should not be automated?
I think that the natural way to do things is whatever gets you the best (or sufficiently good, it's sometimes a tradeoff) results with the least effort. For example: it's possible to paint your whole room with small brushes designed to paint canvas, but it's more natural (or more efficient, comfortable) to just use a bigger brush.
To put it in Starcraft terms, it's obvious that you want to pump units from several gateways. Limiting it to pump units from only one is unnatural, because it isn't what you want to do most of the time, and the new method allows you to do it, and even allows you to select only one if you want, and so, it's also more flexible.

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Originally Posted by Archerofaiur View Post
Ok I am not going to let one slide. Excel does not have rules? Rules govern the entire framework of how excel works. I create an entry and click on the corner and drag it down and the rules dictate that all the other boxes are filled in with homogenous entries. I enter =1/0 into a box and a warning pops up to alert me that I have violated the divide by zero rule. Please elaborate on what you mean by rules. What differentiates regular rules from game rules? What are the other elements that make a game?
Ok, all programs are rules by themselves (otherwise won't run in a computer), but excel rules aren't fun, because it isn't a game. I think this is going in circles, really.

A game (as all entertainment) is probably fun, because it exploits situations that give some kind of pleasure to the player. I'm not sure (it would be better to ask an expert), but probably the mind sees succeding at a stressfull task like a good step in evolution? Violence is another stimulant exploited by the game. Feeling that you win over another human is another one (a pity that the loser feels like shit, but competitions cause that).
 

Last edited by Norfindel; 10-26-2008 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 10-26-2008
 
#47
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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post


Direct combat involves conflict. It is immediate competition with a foe that imposes a risk for entrance (what you lose if you fail) and a reward for success. Conflict is a zero-sum game: each unit you kill is a loss for him and a gain for you.

Building stuff does not. You're still competing with your enemy, but it isn't an immediate competition, because the outcome won't be decided right now. There is no actual conflict yet, and even with the best scouting, it is fairly difficult to determine if you're actually winning at building stuff. And even if you do win, it's the direct combat that decides who wins the game. While there have been many games won with overwhelming macro and map control, there are cases where one side goes all micro-gosu and wins despite the odds (or the other side totally n00bs up their micro).



I agree. Perceived causation plays a role in excitement. It is very easy for the mind to attribute killing units as hurting the opponent. It is a little harder for the mind to attribute distracting his opponent with a scouting probe as hurting the opponent.

However, I believe that there are additional factors that can help explain why players would be more excited by directing units then directing buildings.


I have been trying to get at this idea of the meaningful click and the meaningful key press. These two actions are the only ways that the player can influence what happens in starcraft. The execution of these actions is somehow intrinsically tied to what the player considers fun.


Visual and auditory stimulation plays another key role. This can be thought of as task and reward on a very subconscious level. You kill a dragoon and it dissolves into blue goo. You roll your banelings into that Thor and it explodes. The sensory date from these events stimulates basal brain functions. This low level stimulation serves as a continuous reward loop whenever you are observing in-game battle.

Another factor contributing to the excitement of direct conflict is related to role playing and how the players mind interprets in-game events. Norfindel mentioned humans have a predisposition to violence. What I think he is getting at is that humans are stimulated by what they think in-game combat represents.

Let’s get one thing straight. Combat in Starcraft is not real combat. Combat in a videogame is a representation of the themes and mechanics of real life conflict. All that is really happening is a computer value is reduced to zero and a death protocol is executed. The player perceives something quite different. That zergling was blown apart by that siege tank. Those marines were impaled by that lurker. Those dragoons were just yanked through the very fabric of space onto your mineral line. This storytype interpretation plays a crucial role in the player’s enjoyment.


I believe the concepts of meaningful clicking, sensory stimulation, perceived causation and narrative interpretation are all crucial for understanding the MBS debate.
 

Last edited by Archerofaiur; 10-26-2008 at 04:25 PM.
 

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Old 10-28-2008
 
#48
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Idea:

Harvesters have slight delay when returning minerals, that though the harvesting is actually completed, the harvester pauses for milliseconds.

Players who would want to fully devote their clicks to harvesting can add a few percentage to the speed of harvesting, by selecting the probe and forcing "return cargo."

This seems overkill, though, IMO.


GAS MECHANIC:

3 harvesters will not overload the gas structure, adding additional 1 or 2 will activate an overload gauge (at rates respective to the number of extra harvesters). If the player does not pull out those extra harvesters, the gas structure will shut down.

Balancing will mean that adding the extra harvesters will give 10-15% more gas over time, compared to average 3 harvesters. But if you do not micro this mechanic the downtime will make having 3-only harvesters and overloaded having equally harvested gas over time.

example,

Gas Struct A - harvested by 3 harvesters accumulates 900 gas in 5 mins
Gas Struct B - harvested by 5 harvesters, got overloaded, accumulates 900 gas in 5 mins.

If you micro well, gas harvested will be larger and faster. If you don't, you've wasted minerals over harvesters, but had the chance to get faster gas.

Obviously, the central purpose of this mechanic is to allow players to harvest gas faster in short bursts, without forcing anything. Also, there could grow some macro stuff around this mechanic.

edit: this also means that we'll probably have to allow multiple harvesters to enter a gas structure.
 

Last edited by GnaReffotsirk; 10-28-2008 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008
 
#49
Australia Icemanjkh
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How about having 2 different types of Refinery?!

Having the option would allow you to change between modes and it increases the range of strategies available both reactively [1] or via forward planning [2] or by taking the 'other' option, you can use the mode which mimics the old mechanic from SC1 [3].

I havent decided whether its a building mode or a completely different building. (your input appreciated)

[1] - Reactively: when u suddenly realise you need a sh*tload of gas and are willing to pay for it dearly.
[2] - Forward Planning: by increasing your future production rate/stockpile at the cost of minerals/gas at the present moment.
[3] - Old mechanic: when you simply dont want to babysit the gas, dont want to potentially mess up by forgetting when to refresh and are happy that you only get gas at the normal rate.


Theoretically:
Mode 0 - Operates in the normal fashion (as per SC1) {Old mechanic}
Mode 1 - ** SCVs mine gas, but the total mined is left at the ref. player gets a bonuses for amount of time spent mining but not withdrawing gas from refinery. Gas stays at refinery, but can somehow be deposited to player. Perhaps a fixed 'fee' for each deposit, no matter if its 8 gas or 800. The gas interest accrues on the amount left at the refinery. {forward planning}
Mode 2 - Any other type of forward planning suggestion by BF members {fwd planning}
Mode 3 - Gas harvest yields triple/quadruple the gas, but costs 20 minerals for each returning SCV. {reactive}
Mode 4 - Any other type of reactive suggestion by BF members {reactive}

** Gas that has been harvested, but is unspent by the player (either in refinery or in player possesion), increases by x% (like bank interest) for each xx seconds that it remains. This motivates players to leave gas accumulating 'interest', at the expense of having to build units/tech a little later in time.

I would assume that only 2 (or 3, if standard SC1 is included) modes exist, even though a few options were listed.

feedback...
 
 

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Old 10-28-2008
 
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"Mode 1 - ** SCVs mine gas, but the total mined is left at the ref. player gets a bonuses for amount of time spent mining but not withdrawing gas from refinery. Gas stays at refinery, but can somehow be deposited to player. Perhaps a fixed 'fee' for each deposit, no matter if its 8 gas or 800. The gas interest accrues on the amount left at the refinery. {forward planning}"

By what I see, mode 1 is a passive thing for gas structures? Or does this mean no gas is actually spendable by the player (not present at top right of the UI)?

If in the latter case, since gases are stored in cans/cubes/sacs, that there is a limit to stored gas. Terrans can buy storage add-ons. Protoss and Zerg will have different mechanics built around this.

In the case of terrans "withdrawing" those stored gas, will they still use SCVs to bring them to the CC, or have something else that is instant? Like withdraw everything stored, then gas counter starts rolling?

Or do you mean to show the Player paying for the refinery to "harvest and store" even if no scvs are actively mining?

Edit:

The game Dark Reign: Future of War by Activision uses a kind of threshold mechanic, where no water (main resource) can be spent before the gauge becomes full. Water is harvested in the 3k and deposited to "launchers." The player can get to spend the water, even if the gauge isn't full, by pressing "sell water". Doing this adds tax to the water sold.

Say, if you have 6000 deposited (max 12000), selling 6000 to be able to use it only gives you 4000.
 

Last edited by GnaReffotsirk; 10-28-2008 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008
 
#51
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Gna> Its open to suggestion. But I initially invisaged that players could not yet spend the gas until they 'deposited it into their account/GUI'. The refinery would have a 'gas accumulated' and 'gas remaining' amount. This would detail how much vespene was in the geyser and how much would be given to the player upon 'deposit'.

I want to have a system which doesnt punishes the player for being lax, but rather rewards them for being astute, and at the same time is not a burden.
 
 

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Old 10-28-2008
 
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True, so true.

I wanted to know how I can "deposit" the gas, of how the mechanic really work in detail. This will help me to suggest things which are in line to your original idea.
 
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