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Old 06-22-2007
 
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United States 4pool
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Default New Protoss Production Method

This is somewhat of a response to a recently lambasted (and shortly closed) post by Fleet Admiral about speculation over Protoss units building faster given a recent quote found on sc2.com. The quote was about Protoss ships warping out of stargates like bees out of a hive.

I frequent a number of SC2 forums and ran across this idea some time ago on teamliquid.net's forums:

"Check this:

A single Gateway/Warp Gate is constantly producing a single generic unit (I'm assuming only 1).

When that single unit is ready, it is your job to select which type of unit you want it to be and to bring it onto the battlefield INSTANTLY (and paying for it). After you do this, the Gateway/Warp Gate starts producing another one *automatically*.

So, in effect, this will make it even more important to multitask. Since you cant just select your Gateway and spam 5 zealots because there is only 1 available, you will have to make sure you are releasing your units all the time as they are available otherwise you will fall behind.
.
.
.
Here's the proof:

For proof - check the video.
~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate
There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!

Btw, a Stalker costs 125 minerals and 50 gas atm. (You can work it out when he warps the first one in, by the resources lost)

Same thing at ~7:10 when he warps the Zealots in from a Warp Gate"

If the above isn't clear, basically what it's saying is that similar to (but not exactly like) Zerg larvae, Protoss production would involve waiting for a generic unit to spawn. This generic unit, unlike the larvae, would not be in the game but rather counted down from within the production building. Once the generic unit is spawned, you are then allowed to immediately use it to produce any unit given your tech tree allowance. You pay for that unit once you produce it and it comes out immediately. The catch is that you'll have to wait a significant cool down for the next generic unit to spawn.

The idea seems pretty plausible and I'm definitely a believer. Especially given the evidence and Blizzard themselves mentioning how they wanted to even further differentiate the three races (what better way than to have all 3 have different production methods). In addition, this is pretty much the only explanation for how warp-in would work given the gameplay video. Notice how units are always warped in immediately even though warp-in is linked to unit production and not teleportation.

So I guess, what I'm trying to say is, if this new production method really is employed, then yes, given the right timing, ships can and would be warped out immediately - like bees from a hive. So there might be some significance in the quote that Fleet Admiral pointed out after all.

If you want to read up more on the actual discussion from teamliquid's site, here's the link: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmess...topic_id=53633

edited for grammar
 

Last edited by 4pool; 06-22-2007 at 10:43 PM.
 

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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Netherlands Antilles Inspir3s
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

I didnt read most of it just the first and last part but I dont think fleet admiral ment it as techinical as that...
 

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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

A lot of the mechanics of the gameplay demo were for demonstration purposes only and I strongly believe this to be one of them.
 
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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

Yeah, and umm... under that system a Phoenix would take the same amount of time to warp in as a Tempest or Star Relic, so that right there means that your system could not work, as that would be a major imbalance. If the delay was short, mass spamming of powerful units, if the delay is long, Toss early game would be destroyed. Sorry, but it just doesn't work. Units take different amounts of time to train, build, mutate, warp in, etc for a reason.
 
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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by UED Special Ops View Post
Yeah, and umm... under that system a Phoenix would take the same amount of time to warp in as a Tempest or Star Relic, so that right there means that your system could not work, as that would be a major imbalance. If the delay was short, mass spamming of powerful units, if the delay is long, Toss early game would be destroyed. Sorry, but it just doesn't work. Units take different amounts of time to train, build, mutate, warp in, etc for a reason.
The gateway's generic unit cooldown could be different from the stargate's cooldown. I don't know, this method just seems to make sense to me given the warp-in ability and Blizzard's statement about diversifying each race even more. I mean, wouldn't the warp-in ability be ridiculously clumsy if you had to wait the entire production time to warp in a unit? You'd have to guard your phase prism until the new units are done - that or have great timing. Just my two cents.
 
 

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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

Warp-in is different then warping in a unit via a gateway or star gate, very different. And a generic cooldown just could not be balanced. A Phoenix should take much less time to warp in then a Tempest, and yet with a generic cooldown they would take the same amount of time. Thus, the Toss would either have a massive advantage over the Zerg and Terrans, or their production of more basic units would be hampered, and they would then be at a large disadvantage. Either way, it would simply not work.
 
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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

Thank you for the response 4pool, this is much better then the comments in my thread that seemed to all say "I am retarded!"

At least you investigated before flaming me...
 
 

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Old 06-22-2007
 
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United States 4pool
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by UED Special Ops View Post
Warp-in is different then warping in a unit via a gateway or star gate, very different. And a generic cooldown just could not be balanced. A Phoenix should take much less time to warp in then a Tempest, and yet with a generic cooldown they would take the same amount of time. Thus, the Toss would either have a massive advantage over the Zerg and Terrans, or their production of more basic units would be hampered, and they would then be at a large disadvantage. Either way, it would simply not work.
I'll give you that units produced by a stargate would be more difficult to balance with a generic cooldown. Although tempests do need to produce interceptors, whose production time could be slowed down to balance the whole idea (though I'll admit this isn't likely). There's also speculation that a tempest might only be able to attack ground (again, I don't really think this is likely) but I'm just going to throw that out there in terms of stretching possibilities.

The original discussion on the teamliquid thread was about warp-in and gateways and I'm still a believer of the generic cooldown idea for gateways because I really think, without it, warp-in would just be too clumsy. Lastly, I'm also defending the idea because I think it's just too cool to pass on lol. If the Protoss aren't getting a generic cooldown, I'm at least expecting some other new form of unit production that would fit much more smoothly with the warp-in ability than just regular queuing.
 
 

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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

But then every unit, despite it's strength and tech level, would have the same build-time. Zealots being produced at the same rate of Stalkers or Immortals? Once again, no set cooldown time would work, as either all units effected by this mysterious cooldown warp-in time would either be allowed to warp in to quickly, or to slowly. If Toss players can't queue up units like the Terrans and to a slightly less extent the Zerg can, then anyone playing as Toss would have to be insanely micro-intensive, and constantly check to see if they can build another unit. That is the beauty of queuing up units, you don't have to keep clicking on the production building every 30 seconds to get another unit, you just click a few times and move on to other more important tacks.

Heck, might as well have all Toss buildings be warped in a set amount of time too, as buildings being warped in work on the same principal as warping in units.
 
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Old 06-22-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by UED Special Ops View Post
But then every unit, despite it's strength and tech level, would have the same build-time. Zealots being produced at the same rate of Stalkers or Immortals? Once again, no set cooldown time would work, as either all units effected by this mysterious cooldown warp-in time would either be allowed to warp in to quickly, or to slowly. If Toss players can't queue up units like the Terrans and to a slightly less extent the Zerg can, then anyone playing as Toss would have to be insanely micro-intensive, and constantly check to see if they can build another unit. That is the beauty of queuing up units, you don't have to keep clicking on the production building every 30 seconds to get another unit, you just click a few times and move on to other more important tacks.

Heck, might as well have all Toss buildings be warped in a set amount of time too, as buildings being warped in work on the same principal as warping in units.
One last ditch effort in defense of the generic cooldown: Blizzard could differentiate costs between the units enough to compensate for the flat build time. But yes, this is unlikely.

In any case, I'm more so rooting for the generic cooldown or some variation of it or something completely new because I really think warp-in would be too clumsy otherwise. That and also, it sort of just makes sense for Protoss to have a different production method, for reasons stated previously.

I'll agree that balance issues would arise with a generic cooldown. If that's the case, then I'd expect some other new production method that will run smoothly with an instant warp-in. The generic cooldown is just a hypothesis for what might fill the gap. If it really can't work, then imo there's gotta be something else.
 
 

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Old 06-23-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

I agree with both of you, insofar as 1. Protoss does seem to have some changes to its production methods, and 2. a generic cooldown would be difficult to balance . . .let me see if I can come up with a possibility that takes care of both problems . ..


Here's what we know

1. Warped in units appear in the same amount of time, and are payed for at time of warp in
2. One unit warped in per gateway at a time
3. Gateway must become a warpgate to use warp in
4. Warp Gate is the only building confirmed to have Warp-In so far
5. Units from a gateway appear next to the gateway

Okay, so this is how I think it might work based on what we know . .

1. Gateway, Stargate, Robotics all work exactly as in SC1
2. "Warp Gate" is a researchable ability for gateways
3. Once available, You can click "warp gate", and the gateway slowly "opens" into a warp gate.
4. Once the warp gate is "opened" , you may warp in one of any unit you want using the warp-gate
5. After the warp in, the Warp Gate immediately becomes a Gateway again. You can create units normally, or choose "warp gate" again.


This solves a few of the issues mentioned because:

1. since this is only for gateways, there is no phoenix/tempest problem
2. the advantage of having an immortal in the same time as a zealot is balanced by having to upgrade warp gate, and only getting one unit at a time

What do you guys think?
 
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Old 06-23-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

well it could be that you first purchase the unit and it appears instantly, but as this is a warp gate it would require some time to recharge in order to allow another teleportation.in this case if you purchase higher tier units they will appear instantly but the time required for the gate to recharge its capacity will be significantly longer.

i think this is a very interesting and cool way for protoss to differentiate
 
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Old 06-23-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

It would be nice if they did the same "warp gate" technology for the stargates. A massive fleet of carriers suddenly materializes behind your resource field...

Damn. Except you can't make carriers anymore. I keep forgetting that.
 
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Old 06-23-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

This kinda feels like Battle Realms.. except you keep your peasants in the buildings.....

They could tie this method in for Stalkers and Immortals, they are ressurected Zealots right?

Maybe this time you have to have lost zealots in battle to make these new units?
 
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Old 06-23-2007
 
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Default Re: New Protoss Production Method

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Originally Posted by doninciong View Post
Maybe this time you have to have lost zealots in battle to make these new units?
Nah, I doubt it. Immortals and Stalkers are warped in from elsewhere. They're not made from the units you directly lose in battle. Besides, that would be a real pain to have to lose units in order to make more of a different type. Blizzard wouldn't do that.
 
 

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